Interview: Mark Rawlins

Hello, and welcome to a very special bonus edition of Antonyc Press Play. I'm Nick, and today I am sans ant. Or sans ant, maybe. Yeah, it's just me. I've gone rogue. And I thought just before the final episode on Crime Traveler, I would talk to a Crime Traveler fan. Yes, indeed, there is one. And he is Mark Rawlins, copresenter of the brilliant podcast to watch who, where he and his friend Sarah are watching Dr. Who in order. From the very beginning. Mark from the perspective of a longtime Doctor Who fan, and Sarah, as someone who is new to who. Also he's recently started another podcast called Finish Big, where he and his friend Joe are going through all of Big finishes output in order. Jesus. But more important than that, he was and is a fan of Crime Traveler. So, yeah, it was great talking to him about Crime Traveler, doctor who being a fan in the as we begin here editing podcasts. Enjoy.

Yeah. Okay. Testing, one, two, three. So you just sort of layer it up and do yeah, I spend a lot of time editing. I don't know if you realize I do all the technical stuff. I don't always like so you need to wear earphones or something. She never does. And I'm like, okay, I just sort it out. Just do whatever, and I'll sort it out.

Do you edit through Audacity or another program?

So I do garageband on my Mac.

Okay.

Yeah, I tried Audacity. I don't know, I sort of learn on Garageband, so I just know that really well. And I always find it difficult going on to a different program and stuff.

Yeah, no, same with me.

But Audacity yeah, Audacity is a good one as well. We've done, like, Zoom well, in person. We don't do as much in person anymore. And then we either do Zoom or Zencaster. It's quite good.

Okay.

Where you could download each side.

Oh, that's actually good.

Yeah. The only thing with that is if you sort of talk over each other or something, you get that sort of weird sort of drop out, even on Zencast, even although it's recording over and that's really tricky. I don't know. And sort of how you're doing it. I would sort of prefer that you've got the sort of full, clean recording. Sometimes I get a bit, like, really, like, panicity about it, and other times I'm just like, whatever.

There's a lot of podcasts. I've heard they're all done through Zoom, and sometimes you miss whole chunks of what people are saying you do.

Yeah. And then you've got to cut around it and stuff. Yeah. So it's having, like, a clean sort of either end. I know it takes a while to sort of put them together. The worst one that I did there was, like, the first time we had a guest. I think we did it on Zanecaster, but was on Facebook video or something because it didn't work. My recording didn't come out. I had the other two and then I was, like, really super faint and quiet. I was like, I can't ask him to do it again. So I listened to it back and then re recorded my lines on my own. I've just said exactly the same. Laughter the same.

You're a man after my own heart.

And if you go back, it's the Web Planet episode. If you listen to the Web Planet, you cannot tell it's as if I'm there. I just mimicked myself again and then edited it in. It took ages, but I've done things.

Like that as well. All things where I thought, I've got to get from this bit to this bit and make it not sound unnatural. So I'll do a filler line to Segue from one to the other. But, yeah, there's a lot of post production that they'll never know about.

It's fun. It's fun to do.

It's fun, yeah. Are you quite into the technical side, then? Did you get a bit obsessed with getting everything right?

Well, I used to do, like, video editing and stuff a while back, so, yeah, I do enjoy doing it, literally. I've been constantly editing. There's always something to edit for last however many years. Now that you started, there's always one or two to edit, so it's just been constant.

Well, let's talk about your podcast, then. So you copresent to watch who, which has been running since was it 2019? He started end of 2019.

When do we start? We started recording End of 2019, I think the first episode came out, I remember, because it was locked down in, like, March 2012. We tried to get ahead, I thought, right, we'll bank some episodes and then as slowly as time has gone on, we've sort of lost that. We're like, a week ahead. But, yeah, sort of end of 2019, we decided to do the Doctor Who podcast. Yeah.

So I'm guessing it was your idea.

It wasn't Sarah. So we did do another podcast together before that. So we worked together and how we chat on the podcast is we sort of had desks next to each other and just sort of chatted like that all day and probably didn't get much work done. And I started watching some. It was the name of the Rose, actually. The Sean Connery film. I don't know if you know it.

Yeah, I do. Yes.

I'd watch that. And I came in and went, oh, it's Sean Connery and he's a detective and he's a monk. And Sarah was like, well, that sounds good. Can I borrow it? And then she borrowed it and was like and was very shocked by the graphic sex scenes in it. You didn't tell me that was going to be she thought she was, like, going to watch this interesting detective thing. And then we started doing like a films podcast and we did about 50 of those where I would make Sarah watch various films, random films from all different times and just weird sort of German things where quite explicit was it.

Always your suggestion of things that she should watch? Was it one way street?

Well, it was a list. I found a list of, like, the greatest books everyone should read, but we were watching the films instead.

Oh, yeah, nice idea.

That was the sort of the take on it. But there were all sorts of different things. So it's just funny sort of versions of films or interesting versions of films that might shock Sarah, basically. And then then after a while, she that sort of died down a bit because I think it was tougher to watch all these films. And then she said, let's do Doctor Who. Let's do a Doctor Who. Why don't I watch all of Dr. Who? And I was like, of course, yes. Brilliant.

So would you talk to her about Dr before you broached discussion topics or did she just think she never talks about Doctor I think we should talk.

I was like, I saw I was like the 90s fan. Yeah. So it was that sort of, you know, the Wilderness Years as was they say it wasn't sort of necessarily cool to be a Doctor Who fan. Ah. So I never really talked about it when we were at work or so I started going to conventions a little bit and just started talking to about it a little bit, but I just it was just one even, you know, with the new series back and everything, I just didn't I don't know why. It's just one of those things that you I think as a 90s fan that you always have with you, maybe.

Yeah. No, I'm the same.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you were you a fan. You're obviously a Doctor Who fan as well.

Yeah, well, I'm probably just a little bit older than you, but I'm definitely a 90s wilderness years fan.

I didn't really talk about it, and then now we talk about it every week.

So I'm trying to think how I came across your podcast. I think I was in a kind of William Hartnell early years kind of phase.

Right?

Because I just heard I think it was probably Toby Haydoke's podcast that he does. Do you follow his work?

I love Toby Haydoke stuff. Yeah.

And the episode by episode, I don't know how many times I've listened to them, but just so much so I was like, oh, I need to find somebody who's talking about the early years. So just scrolling through and I came across your one, and it stuck out to me. One because you're a man woman duo, which is quite unusual, I think. But this was I thought, oh, that's interesting. And then the premise of a fan and a non fan, that also piqued my interest. And then I realized, listening to it, that Sarah's not she's not cynical about it, and so it's not like, oh, yeah, we're talking about your stupid thing, or that kind of thing. She's very frank when she needs to be, but I thought this is really refreshing. It's somebody who's actually thinking about what she's seen and discussing it very articulately.

Yeah, I was quite surprised, actually, especially when you're starting.

I do like how she sort of bursts the fan bubble every now and again.

She doesn't care. She doesn't care.

There's various bits of received opinion in fandom, isn't there? So if you go, oh, this is a classic bit, this is amazing, and she's like, Mark, no.

You surprised me, but you don't know. That's the thing. Things that I think she's going to like, she might not, and other things that I think, oh, well, of course everybody hates this, or everybody has a problem with this effect, or monster, then she suddenly loves. You have no idea.

Well, of course, there's the famous Keys of Mariness episode, isn't it? Were you a fat already? I can't remember. Or was it just not particularly?

I hadn't really watched it that much. I don't know what it was. Watching these again. I mean, I've seen all the Doctors at some point, but some of them I haven't watched ads closely, and I think maybe for the podcast, I'm sort of concentrating a bit more. I still remember that one. We were having a takeaway or something, watching that through. I don't know. It was just the perfect evening of watching who with. It was just fun to watch. And I think that just stayed with us. Yeah, it's a surprise. Yeah.

And I think that might be the first one she was really enthusiastic about as well, which helps.

Yeah.

Especially was it the previous one? Marco Polo?

Absolutely, yeah. Marco Polo. That was a tough one early on. She didn't really watch that one properly. I showed it as a cut down recon as well. I didn't make her no. Seven episodes, but even, like, half an hour right, early on. But that's a lot to ask someone that isn't particularly interested in Doctor Who or Sci-fi or anything.

Oh, and also in the in the fairly unique position of watching something that doesn't exist in its original form.

Yeah, exactly.

Fans have learned how to sort of process that.

You just sort of know, don't you? I don't know. When you learn, it's just a fan thing, isn't it? You can't explain it. You just know all of this. You have this knowledge, don't you? All this sort of behind the scenes or history. I don't think Sarah realized they were missing episodes at all. No, of course not. Why would she?

No, exactly. Yeah. Obviously there are other shows that have all episodes missing, just doesn't exist in any form, or have a few missing, but I think Doctor is quite unique in that. God bless those fans with the microphones against TVs in the old days, that it actually impossibly exists in some form.

It's a weird thing as well. It's not a fan thing as well to record, because those 1992 repeats, I had a tape recorder which see devil's amusement. Yeah. I don't know why I was like, is that just something that you do?

I didn't record Doc Two, but I did recorded other stuff, comedy stuff mainly, I think, to listen to.

Yeah, you just do that, don't you?

Yeah. I was thinking the other day, as a Doctor fan, there's still quite a lot of Doctor that I haven't actually watched. And I think as your podcast goes on, I think Sarah knows more about Doctor than I.

That's the thing with someone that hasn't watched all of it. You've got new doctor. Who to discover?

Exactly. And that's why that's another reason I love listening to your podcast, because it sort of opens my eyes to these episodes that I haven't really thought about sitting down to actually watch. Yeah, it just depended on what videos we had of what was on telly and that kind of thing. I did have a big VHS collection that I took over from my brother. I got rid of a lot of my other VHS, but I can't touch them yet.

I got rid of quite a few.

They're just a complete waste of space, that's the thing.

But I don't want it. I've got a select few now. Ones I've got is like, birthday presents and I remember getting I have memories of going to Woolworths or whatever and getting the VHS tape. Yeah, I have to keep those. Yeah. Fan of the night. So are you a fan of the 1996 Paul McGann film?

Yes, I am. I remember on the actual night, I had a few mixed feelings about it, let's say, because it wasn't quite what I expected, and especially being a classic fan, it's interesting how things change. Looking back at it now, it seems rather tame, doesn't it? If anything, it's a bit too stuck in the past, really.

I think is great. And just being that sort of being at that age at that time was perfect. I love that. I love the Paul McGann film and being a 90s fan, I'm proud to be a 90s fan.

I definitely remember Dimensions in Time when that was actually on live. Were you a bit young for that or did you see it live? That one.

I would say that's like the first new who that I watched. I do remember watching that and taking it off the TV and watching it over and over again. I so I'd watch the women, the repeats. 92. That's when I first watched Doctor Who. So, yeah, I was proper into it then. How old was I? Seven or eight? So I was twelve in 1997, because I was trying to work out how old I was when I first watched Crime Traveler. Oh, sorry, you probably would have been about, yeah, I'm not then to primary school. I was just leaving primary school around in 97. Okay.

Because I was 13 when that was out of them.

Yeah.

And I was excited to see it. And my dad called upstairs, it's going to be on in a minute. Oh, yeah, great. I just run down the stairs, fell, slipped, got a carpet burn all down my arm, and I just had to watch the whole thing with some frozen peas on my arm. I remember that.

Well, the family TV broke, like, a few days before, and then my parents were like, yeah, we're not getting any TV. I was like, no, you did get one eventually, because we were a family of TV watchers. But I was panicking. I was like, this is the worst time for the TV to break. We got a new one just in time.

And I feel a lot of my childhood was trying to explain how important Doctor was, like the world would end if we weren't home in time to record it.

Yeah. Taking all those repeats on in the.

You'Ve gone around quite a few events, haven't you, and met quite a lot of the castes.

Well, I have, yeah. It was only the last sort of proper, I don't know, maybe five years now, I suppose. And I suppose that's when I started talking about it at work, when I was going off these things. I hadn't for a long time. I'm sort of the other end of it now, I think. I've been to so many, I'm like, Well, I've seen all of those people now and they're sort of getting a bit exactly the same. So I've been to so many, but I went to London Comiccon, the big one. I'd never done that. And the only reason I really went to that was because Christopherstone was doing his very first ever convention and I thought, he's only going to do one. It was such a shock when he was going to do a signing.

It's weird how things change in it.

And now all the big finishing stuff.

Can'T stop him again.

He's like, oh, he's done another big finish box there. I'm not even interested now. I haven't even it's just so old news now that Christopher Richardson is playing the Doctor again. It is funny, isn't it? But at that time, I've got to see Christopher Richardson, and then they announced Matt Smith, and there was, like, Colin Baker and Tom Baker was there and it was a very expensive weekend. Yeah.

Did you meet all these people?

I met all pretty much nearly all the Doctors that weekend, and that sort of got me into going to events. And then you sort of want to meet I don't know, I just wanted to meet all the sort of classic the ones that are getting a bit older that might not be around. And you just think, oh, actually, it would be really just nice to say hello, get a photo and just say how much you appreciate their work. I just sort of see who be worth going to see. And Ian William Russell was a guest at probably one of his last conventions, so I'm so glad I had the chance because I don't think he's going to do anymore.

Doubt it. No. He was 97 the other day, wasn't he?

I think I know. I meet him maybe four years ago. Yeah. Didn't think he was particularly with it back then, unfortunately, but it was just nice just to see him and be in the same room as him and just hear him talk. Yeah. But some of them I've seen so many times now. I mean, Colin Baker and Katie Manning do many, many events.

Katie Manning is brilliant.

Yeah, she's great. But I've heard every story and I don't need to decide any more stuff.

No, you know, I forgot from about 2010, there's a picture of me at Sunshine in here, up in Sheffield, and it's one of those pictures where everyone's there, they all come together and you sit in the middle of them looking awkward.

Oh, great. Yes.

But it includes quite a few people who I didn't actually meet on the day, so I'm sat in between Deborah Watling and the lady who played Eldrad, and I'm just sat in between them. It's so weird. I didn't actually meet either of them.

I'm just here those combinations of people, don't you? When they do the group shot and you're just like, okay, yeah, well, it's fun. I always have a laugh. Yeah.

So were there any other shows during the Wilderness years that you really got into, like Crime Traveler? Because there were quite a few, wasn't there, to fill that gap?

Well, yeah, I was thinking about sort of the BBC had sort of given up on Doctor Who, really. The TV movie hadn't really worked out, although it should have should have been amazing. It should have carried on. And then they sort of were trying to make they didn't want to make Doctor Who, it seems, but they wanted something to fill that slot. So you had stuff like Crime Traveler, didn't you? And I was thinking, what else was around that time? And Bugs was around that time. I've only started recently watching that, though I didn't watch it at the time. I don't know.

Another thing I missed at the time.

And I didn't realize that finished in 99, so that was going on as Crime Traveler was going on. I didn't realize. But actually, Crime Traveler was probably the main thing around that time. And Red Dwarf as well, at that time, of course.

Yeah. I just come back a couple of months before, hadn't it? 1997. It had quite a long gap.

Yeah, because I was trying to think that was like a perfect I think I was just watching old TV then at that age because you had Red Dwarf series seven started. That was on a Friday night and I think Crime Traveler just sort of was around that time as well, or was just starting as that finish. I absolutely love Chloe Net and she was like so I think there was a time where she was on a Friday night and a Saturday night just around March 97, and I loved it. And I don't know, for some reason, my mom and my brother loved Red Dwarf. We all just loved Red Dwarf and just had a lot of Red Dwarf videos. That was like a big thing in our whole household. For some reason, I was probably a bit too young to watch it with her, maybe.

I think series seven might be the first one I watched live and properly.

Followed, but I think the Red Daw fans don't really like that series. No, I'm not really into I love that one. I don't know, because maybe that was the first one the year I saw sort of live as well.

Well, it is very different, but I've got a soft spot for series eight and that's even more hated, I think.

I don't know, that's a bit yeah, I'm not sure about that one. A bit funny then it went a bit yeah, I don't know, it wasn't as good as series seven. I was expecting the same sort of filming. They went back to the sort of.

Studio I mean, yeah, it had quite a format shift, didn't it?

Yeah, they changed it around a bit too much. But when I was used to series seven, so I remember in primary school talking about Red Dwarf and drawing Red Dwarf things and pictures and stuff, as well as Doctor Who. So, yeah, I was into whatever sort of around what the BBC were putting out around that time.

I was going to ask, was it Seen Chloenet and then Senior in Crowntravel at Pizza and Dress, or would you have just watched it anyway?

Because it was I feel to watch it anyway Saturday nights. I mean, I don't really watch live TV anymore, not for a long time. But back then, what was it? It was the lottery casualty. And maybe was it the lottery crime traveler or something? And then casualty.

Yeah, sounds like it's a bit of.

I remember watching around that time, so it was just whatever was on, really, but sort of scifi wise, anything was close to Doctor Who. When I wasn't watching the Doctor Who video, I think I taped Crime Traveler off the TV at the time and was watching that. Yeah, I just can't believe I missed bugs and a lot of stuff because my brother is four years older than me. He's not like a Doctor Who fan or anything, but he would watch it or watch Red Dwarf or something. So whatever sort of Sci-Fi thing he might be watching, I would probably end up watching as well. Oh, and Sliders was on at that time as well. Contemporary at the sort of 06:00 BBC Two, or Sliders, Buffy, all of that kind of stuff. Maybe not so much, actually, Star Trek. I've never been bothered about Star Trek. I've never really gotten into it properly.

No, same. It's a bit stuffy for my liking, I think.

I always say. Yes, the humor. That's why I like Dr. Who. It's got something about the humor in it that is just but when Star Trek tries to do humor, I'm just like, no, it's just not right. It's not funny. It's just cringe.

There's something about The Next Generation and especially the theme tune that really reminds me of that time and those evenings, really clearly, and when they would do.

Something like, we're all going to go and be in a Western in The Holodeck or something, it's like, no, you just run out of ideas. You just all going to dress up, and they would just seem to be dressing up and being stupid every week. And I was just like, no, it's not funny, though. They think it's funny that all this space crew in a western. It's not funny. It's just not. But well, I know it's saying that Red Dwarf or something. I don't know. It's got that different kind of humor that maybe someone like Star Trek hasn't got. So, yeah, I never really got into that. Yeah, that was the 90. It was a great time.

I was quite stubborn in that I found it really hard to follow any of the Sci-Fi stuff okay. Because it wasn't Doctor Who, so I just thought, I'm not really interested. It's not exactly this thing that I like. Whereas now I'm regretting it, especially because of finally getting into Crime Traveler about four years ago.

Yeah, that's it's. It's funny how I don't know, it's got a bit of a has got a bit of a cult following. People who know it, know it, or people just don't know it at all. I think it's just one of those things that hasn't there's a few people.

On Twitter who are fans of it. I do search it every now and again just to see what people are saying about it. But the main mentions of Crime Travel are not complimentary, let's say. And I kind of get it because I kind of think it may have been sold slightly inaccurately. And I think, actually, if you think about it as a crime drama rather.

Than a Sci-Fi drama yes, because I was thinking about this. Yeah, if you took out that a lot of the episodes as well, you get that the bit where they have to go back in time and you've just got that very slight Sci-Fi element. But actually, if you took that out and it was just Holly and Slade investigating as a duo, it would still work in a way. Obviously, you have to change a lot of plot with the time travel bit, but the tone of it it's a strange tone, I think, because it's not, I suppose, Jonathan Creek. It turned into that tone that Jonathan Creek started with. I think they sort of went on and I don't know. And watching Bugs recently as well. It's got that same tone as well, but Who, I suppose it is a family audience, but it's just that maybe slightly older. I mean, what was I yeah, 1213, I think is perfect age for that kind of thing. Maybe the time slot that it was on wasn't the best. I feel like it was on a bit later. Maybe not.

I remember how I think it was on about 08:00.

08:00, yeah. But great for the BBC for making something like that, because actually, I'm quite surprised. After Doctor Who, there wasn't really that much around of the Sci-Fi stuff, but until Dr. Who came back and then ITV wanted to get in on it. And I don't know. Am I misremembering? There wasn't that much around the BBC.

Making new stuff in terms of Sci-Fi stuff.

Yeah.

Whoever the commissioners were weren't really interested. Which is why sort of people see Crime Traveler as kind of sneaking Sci-Fi into the back door, which might be true, but I think you can tell, having heard Anthony Horowitz's interviews, he's not asked about the Sci-Fi aspect of it. For him, that's just so you can tell, to be honest. But for him, that's just a way of reinvigorating the crime drama format. He says that he got the idea when he was writing Puerto, and they have the flashback bit at the end where he says, what happens? And you flashback and you see it all happening. And so his idea was just, oh, wouldn't it be great to just flip that round and actually go back instead of just narrating what happened? And so that's his thing. I don't think he actually spent that long thinking, okay, so let's do some research into Sci-Fi. I think he was just like, no, the crime, the twist and turns, all that stuff. I like Antonio Horowitz. He's very enthusiastic about that kind of thing.

Somebody said, I can't remember who said about there not being a second series, that there was a change at the sort of management of the BBC and they just forgot to recommission a series.

Not necessarily forgettings, it's more like I mean, things like that happen all the time, where something will be on the books to be recommissioned and there'll be a change in the hierarchy and the next person will go, Nah, I'm not bothered by that. So I think it was just one of those things that it just whoever came in had their own idea, and whatever paperwork was relating to the second series fell off the desk and into the bid. I don't know.

Well, I actually wrote to the BBC about Crime Traveler at the time. You did.

And I saw that a long time before I heard your podcast. So I was like, oh my God.

I mean, I've got the letter, but I don't particularly remember writing it. No, but I obviously did. And I've got it here, dated 17 June 1997. And it says, dear Mr. Orlands, thank you for your letter or 15 June about crime traveler. Unfortunately, there are no plans for a further series. It is possible that the series shown earlier this year will be repeated at a later date. Sure don't think happened.

No.

We are sorry not to be able to give you a more positive reply at this stage. With very best wishes, Simon Wilson of the viewer and listener correspondence. So I was going to say, if they forgot to recommission it, they did have my letter. So that should have reminded them to bring back a second series. It's the only letter I've written to like, well, asking or demanding to the BBC. You hear about all these people being like, angry and getting in touch with the BBC. But I know that's the only thing that has ever made me right away.

Good on you for being proactive, though, because it wouldn't have really occurred to me to do something like that.

I wish I can remember actually doing it or what I get if it was like child's writing on a postcard or something. I just don't remember. Obviously. I loved from travelers so much of the time. I decided to write as soon as the series had finished. Yeah.

Because did it finish in April?

April time. And that was June. I mean, they got back pretty quick if that was 15th to June and.

It already wasn't due to be.

Yeah, already there was no like they could have been. Yeah, exactly. They they made up their mind. But then Jonathan Creek started a little, you know, a couple of months later, I think. I didn't realize there was such an overlap of all those shows. I thought it was sort of a bit more of an evolution of let's try this, let's try this. And then, yeah, I remember watching Johnson Greek a lot as a Saturday night show.

Yeah, I was kind of into that. Weirdly. I only really started watching it because Peter Davidson was in one of the episodes and I'd spotted his name in the radio towers. I was like, oh, so it was more to see him. And then I kind of got into it. But yeah, it's kind of how Crowntraveler could have been, I think.

Yeah. And you can see how well I was thinking about, okay, what if Crime Traveler got into a second series? The format would have had to change a bit as we got the set up. You knew there was something would happen, they'd go back. And at that last episode, episode eight, it felt like things were just starting to get a bit more. You've got possibly a returning villain. That Marlowe guy. We got the format, we got a regular team of characters. We know what that is. Where is it going to go now? And I think they could have done a lot more with it. It could have gone on and I know they could have gone back further in time. They could have, as I say, had this sort of regular somebody else has a time machine, there's a regular villain. As such, you could find out more about Holly's father. There's a lot more that you could go into, change something, bending the rules.

Of time, playing with that a little bit, because it was quite restrictive and I don't actually mind the rules. He set up things a bit different from what we used to. Well, especially the top two fans, where you just think, oh, yeah, time is you just go wherever you want, whenever you want. But, yeah, for all people complain about these rules being quite restrictive to the drama, I quite like it. I like that you can't just hop back and forth. I like that we can live the events again from a different perspective.

I really like that. I think it's a really good concept. And I love Michael French and Chloenette. Wouldn't it be amazing, Chloenette, as a doctor for the 90s? Imagine.

Are you a really big Chloe Nette fan, then? Yeah, I am, because I like her and I liked her in Red Dwarf when I saw her, but I feel that she sometimes lacks a bit of sparkle, you know what I mean? And I don't know whether that's just how she was written, the Kuchanski, the Holly, but there's not a lot of jokes, really, with her character, is there?

Not a lot of she does play that. She is the serious one. She is. That. We've got to get back on time. Jeff.

No, don't do that. We can't. We can never do that. Rules, rules, rules.

Yeah, that is her role. That is her role.

And obviously, in Red Dwarf as well. She was the one that was like she was the sensible one, wasn't she?

She's very similar, I was thinking. Yeah, she is very kaczynski.

Why are you all messing around? Why is it so horrible around here? I hate that.

It is that, isn't it? She hasn't really done that much else, which is a bit of a shame.

No, she does do the odd convention, though, I've noticed.

I know I really want to say, okay, so there was a showmaster in Exeter and she was announced and I was like, Right, I'm going. I booked the travel. The hotel was, like, quite far to go. Booked the hotel, everything. And the day before she canceled. Okay, well, I had to go anyway, didn't I? So I went down and who was in? Michelle Ryan was there instead. I saw her, but I was so disappointed. I was literally going all that way just to see her, and I'm always on the lookout and I missed her. I think she was at London Comic Con, but I think she's doing one next year.

I did spot that next May, and.

I'm like, I've got to go to that. I have got to go. Forget anyone I've met from Doctor Who. I want to meet Clarionette. It might be completely disappointing, and I know she's not going to necessarily look like she did in Crime Traveler, but I'm sure she's very nice. I want to see it, and I want to show my letter that I wrote to the Week Traveler. I really want to see it. And you never know how they're going to be or necessarily if they want to be at these things, but I just really want to see if she's top of my list to me. I don't know what I don't know. I just loved her in Red Dwarf at the time, and I love her in Crime Traveler and I could sit out. She'd be great as a doctor. Who?

Yeah, I agree. I agree. Maybe not as the Doctor, if that's what you suggest.

Okay, what about if the BBC were like, right, we're going to make a series with Paul McGahn in 1997. We're going to do it low budget. It's going to be all set on Earth, and you have Holly as the Science officer, and she regularly bumps into Paul McGann as the Doctor on Earth, and he takes her back and they solve crimes that way, and she always calls upon him. And so she's the companion. And you've got like that Unit sort of set up that you had in the John Perk were years. You've got Grisham as the brigadier type. You got Morris and Nicky is sort of Benton and Yates. She's the companion, and you have Paul McGann there. Or maybe Michael French could be the doctor. I don't know. That's what goes on in my head when I sometimes watch these things. They could have done that. It could have been a reboot for Doctor Who in that with that budget, with a Crime Traveler budget set on Earth like that. Okay. You'd have a couple of aliens or something in there, but not big, big Sci-Fi still set on Earth. I think you could do that. It could have been amazing.

You're not the first person to suggest that.

Okay.

I would have minded them being in it, either of them, as something, but maybe not the titular character and companion.

Okay. No, I think she could play the Doctor. Definitely.

I obviously would have liked to have seen him in more Crime Jobler.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. Absolutely. I hadn't seen Michael French. I didn't watch him in his enders. I only know him from after being in Holby City when that started in 98, 99. He was at the beginning of Hoby City. I remember him in that. But I haven't really seen him in anything else, but I think he's brilliant. I know they're just probably like his great characters. I really like him and the whole ensemble as well. And I didn't realize until I saw your Tweet that's his name the guy played Nikki was in Power of the Doctor.

Yes.

I had no idea. Yeah. Unrecognizable Richard Dempsey. I'm glad he's still working.

Yeah. Nice guy. He doesn't really look much different either. He's aged very well.

Yeah, because when I watched him, the type of thing I'd known him from The Narnia Chronicles of Narnia, I knew him from that. And I loved around this time as well, you're sort of spotting those familiar actors like you've sort of mentioned before, people like Terrence Hardiman, and it's great watching these things back, just trying to spot the actors from either Doctor Who or around that time, something else. Same with in Bugs as well. You get a lot of those actors, jonathan Creek as well, like you say, someone from Doctor Who always pops up. Yeah.

I think had we got a second series, we would have got a few more guest stars, bigger names, I think.

Yeah. But also I think maybe they would have, in terms of the format, like I don't know. Did you watch sliders?

No, I didn't.

No. You didn't watch sliders. Okay. Well, that sort of had the format was established in the first series where they went from different parallel universe and there was always something different. And then towards as it went on, it got a bit even more jumping from dimension or whatever was the main bit. And then they would work out whatever they had to work out. And then they brought in some sort of alien that had a sliding machine and they had a spaceship, and it got suddenly very sci-fi and they were on spaceships and stuff, rather than going just from Earth to Earth, the same town. Maybe if the budget had increased or something, maybe you could have had that kind of maybe a bit more Sci-Fi or ali element. It might have got a bit ridiculous, but maybe they would have seen something.

They probably would have got a few guest writers in as well for a second series, so you would have had other people's ideas coming in and freshening things up.

But it's a perfect sort of eight. Maybe it's great because it's just that concise eight episodes, it didn't have the chance to go completely off and go completely mad. It is open ended. There what could have happened next, and maybe it should be like that, and maybe that's why it's great, because it just had those eight and we could appreciate those.

Complain too much about there's one guy on Twitter and I can't remember his handle off the top of my head, but every time big Finnish mention anything new, he's always underneath going crime travel. What about crime traveler? Hey. Fingers crossed for crime traveler.

I think that I just don't write it.

It would be interesting. Have you heard Nick Briggs's podcast where he talks about it with no, I haven't. Right. Well, neither of them were particularly kind about it. And Nick Briggs basically said, never, never coming anywhere near big finish. What, he was no, he hated it. Hated it. I think they only watched the first episode, and I don't think that's the great one to be the only one that you say no, I think that's a bit weak. There's a lot to get in. No, but they could actually do wonders.

With it, I think. Yeah.

As an adaptation, as a narrated story, or as getting the whole cast back together, sort of thing. Anything?

Well, I'd rather crime travel and Nick Briggs doing Sherlock Holmes. Yeah, that's a bunch of me. Or some of the other things that they do. I know that these are sort of Gerry Anderson things. With Crime Travel, you can have a great I've been listening to their Survivors series now. I've not seen any of Survivors on TV. I've not seen the original at all. But I love the big finish. And that's great.

The soundscapes have they done it as a kind of rebooted thing of the got is it a continuation of the TV series?

It starts off so it's got some new characters and some characters from the TV series, and it's sort of parallel to the series. So while stuff is going on in some parts, the audio ones are going on and then they sort of cross over. So it doesn't always have the TV characters in. They sort of pop in and out depending on where they're supposed to be in the TV series. In a way, they're creating all these brand new characters and yeah, I've listened to five or six series of Survivors, but I've never actually seen the TV show. But you don't need to. Yeah. I think they could do a lot with Crime Traveler on audio. Does Michael French do what is he doing a lot of theater stuff? Has he done recent stuff?

No, he's not done I'm sure he would do it. He's not done much, really, for a while.

But you don't really see chloenette doesn't do looking for interviews and stuff with Chloe Nette. There isn't I mean, she does a lot of Red Dwarf stuff. Yeah. And I suppose she does regular sort of the convention circuit. However, the Red Dwarf sort of fandom is, I suppose. But she you never really see anything else about her talking about that or no. I was surprised to read he realized that Janet Fielding was her agent at the time.

Oh, is that true? I knew she was an agent.

It was on Twitter. Someone tweeted something about clothing and Janet Fielding retweeted her when I was her agent. So she must have got her the job in Red Dwarf and Crime Traveler. That's great.

Wasn't she somebody else's agent as well.

That was Paul McGann when he got the doctor.

That was the one that I saw. Yeah. Paul McGann.

So, yeah, she was doing well at the time. Around the 96.

Yeah. Good honor.

Yeah.

I mean, she could have put no wig on the contract. Navy. So if you were in charge of Crime Traveler series two, what would you change about it? What do you think were its weaknesses from series one?

What a change.

You've suggested Doctor crossover and aliens come into it. Personally, I think the team should be shaken up a bit.

Yes. Something would have to change. You couldn't just keep that same team. You had to change that formula a little bit and maybe that would be one of the characters changing up. They get a new boss, something like that, and that changes. Or someone else finds out about the machine and knows what's going on. And so there's a third person that's in on it, not necessarily in the police, but somebody else, maybe. Yeah.

Which could have been Jack Slade.

Yes.

As he was thinking at the end, wasn't he was piecing it all together.

If he came back sort of semi regular and would sort of come in and help every now and yes, something like that. Somebody else would need to be added into it, I think. And I think a more sort of an overarching theme, like a returning somebody else that is sort of Doctor Who turns like a master type character that is always behind the scenes. There's something else like a bigger arc overall. Say if you're going to do eight episodes, there's something big in the background, I think, something like that. Just to aim a little bit higher than just something of the week, I think. And, I mean, I love Sue Johnston as Grisham. She's great because she plays it, she brings a quality to it that's sort of serious to it, but she can't be too smart because otherwise it will all fall apart. She has to have that sort of slightly comedic, sort of do you know what I mean? It all sort of has to go over ahead. At the end of the day, she can't be too with. So maybe if somebody came in that was a bit more with it and a bit more maybe that's in on the police force, maybe that finds out or is trying to find out, or there's somebody inside that is doing something. They needed a bigger sort of arc, I think I would say a different head of police or chief that would come in. I wouldn't change too much. I really wouldn't. Actually. Maybe Slade needs to change that suit a little bit more. Yeah, I think that's what it would be. Is that even something would people wear that in the don't know what's the one where he's wearing, like, the green trousers and the green shirt and the muscle. It just doesn't work. It's awful. She looks great in the blue blazer and the red. She looks great in anything, but he does. Terrible. That is not a great regular costume for no.

Michael French is very handsome, looks very good in stuff. There's a few publicity shots, I don't know if you've seen them, of them in different clothes. So, like, he's got a black polo neck. Oh, yeah.

Oh, no, that doesn't work either. Really?

Well, it's better than what he got. I mean, just wearing regular clothes, it'd be great. And what is it like a sort of suede looks a bit sweaty and a bit although very limply.

He is centered wherever in any scene, you know, that's where he is. That's probably that's the point, isn't it? Or when the stunt guys on the roof, you can just let you know that that's him from far away. What, as many as many as a television now? He needs to change that outfit, definitely. He cannot keep wearing that.

I've always thought it was strange, Holly's role in it, in that she's sort of someone who can just do anything, any kind of science, physics, biology, chemistry, whatever you want. Holly and everything is sort of manipulated in such a way for Holly to be sort of present with Slade.

It is a bit awkward sometimes, isn't it? Yeah. Yes.

So either she should be a detective fine. Or if they were to reboot it, rethink just with the basic premise, I would have Slade as a private detective.

Right.

Much more his own man, much more the Jonathan Creek character. And I'd have Holly as her own independent scientist, or like, from a different organization. So they legitimately have to watch out for the police because they're independent. People wouldn't change it too much either, I don't think, because you could have.

Had Holly in a flat, but you're taking out all of that police team.

Oh, yeah.

I could see how that works, I suppose. Yeah. That is going towards Jonathan Creek style, in a way. But my favorite elements are when there's something and you know that you work out that it sets it up, doesn't it, for when they go back, they put that in place there, or there's a door locked or an alarm goes off or anything. I love working that, working that out and be like and it's very cleverly put together, I think. And having the police there does have that extra. That's why they've got to keep stuff secret. And there's a bit more of an urgency to stuff in that way, as well as having the police team there. And they've got to be a bit more careful about how they go about things. But then, like I said, the downside is all of their team have to be fairly everything has to go over their head and a little bit stupid for it to work. Yeah. So, yeah, maybe taking them all out and then yeah, they have some other regular people that they can call upon or help them out.

Or it could be maybe Jeff was part of that team, but then he was just so rogue that he was.

Always rogue though, isn't it?

Yeah, the rogue even more so. He would know that team. He'd see them around, he'd know they were they'd know who he was, but they weren't affiliated. I mean, you've got that in the first episode. Even one of the first things that happens to Jeff is he gets fired for being two rogue. So that could be a good sort of way of getting him out with the force and becoming this independent person. So that's why you disobeyed my orders and destroyed the entire operation because you felt it.

Gee.

Not now, Turner. You type up that report and then you get out of here. Oh, you're suspending me again? No, I'm not suspending you. This time you are out for good. I do think in terms of the actual crimes, I almost get a feeling, especially when Anthony Horowitz has mentioned Ryan Puerto being the inspiration for this idea. I think a lot of the crimes could almost be like an Agatha Christie mystery. It's almost like and we found your monogrammed handkerchief with this lipstick on, that sort of thing. Yeah, it just seemed quite old fashioned and I think it came at kind of that wrong time, late ninety s, but before the millennium. And so a lot of the sort of tech side of it just wasn't there really. And it seemed to be a little bit old fashioned detective, old fashioned policing.

But then that's that's the problem with Bugs is supposed to be all this high tech, I mean, sort of dated really badly now and it's all done around Canary Wolf. Canary Wolf is in the background of every single shot. I don't know if it was like a sponsor or something, but it's all around that. And there as it goes through the series, the series one is very sort of down to earth and then they get involved in sort of the space program and they're suddenly going up in a rocket. It's still sort of in reality aliens or scifi and stuff, but their way of sort of making it a little bit more techy as they go towards the millennium is to do more sort of nasty type incidents and people stuck in space shuttles and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. Just reminded me of that. But then that's all dated really badly. Well, tech.

Yeah.

In that, you know so Bugs were sort of going a bit more sophisticated with their sort of crime, but they're more sort of tech based crimes than murder, I suppose. Yeah, well, no, there's murder.

And I mean, even like I love the internet music for Crime Traveler.

Say about the music, would you change that?

We haven't really talked about it much in previous podcasts either, but it took me a while to when I first heard the theme tune, I was thinking, oh, this is not what I was expecting. This is a bit it felt a bit old fashioned and a little bit I don't know, slow paced.

Yeah, that's the way yeah, it's a bit slow compared to the actually, that's.

One of the things, I think that makes it feel like an old fashioned crime drama, or standard crime drama is the orchestral, the slow, the clarinet, all that kind of thing.

Yeah. Is that TV just then, though? Is it just how everything one trying to think what other stuff was, maybe.

But I think it was on that cusp, you see. I think it was coming out of the 90s, things sort of changed a little bit, but I mean, Jonathan Creek had music like that was all in it, thinking about it. But if you got the Sci-Fi tech element in there, I think it could have been a bit more energetic.

So would you change the titles and the theme chain completely?

Would you want I would change them. And I saw a video on YouTube, somebody had done like a long trailer to a song, and it was a song by News. I can't remember which one it was, but it was really good and they cut it in with all the running and the explosions and stuff, and I thought, yeah, this is what it should have been for a title sequence. It should have been like, yes, we've got adventure, we've got race against time, it's all happening, we've got murder and suspense and all this kind of thing. But with that opening, it just seems to sort of to not gain any momentum. Well, because it's metronomic, isn't it? It's to the second hand of a clock.

Yeah, it's not the best.

And also, in terms of a piece of music, it's all there within that 50 seconds or something, beginning, middle and end. So I don't think you could make a full length version with some theme tunes. That's it. You can't repeat it at any point because it goes through these different modes and keys and all this kind of thing, and then just winds down as the clock stops.

It's a bit catchy, though. It does get in your head.

Oh, I've got mixed feelings about it. I was very negative about it originally, but now I love it. I do think it should have perhaps been a bit more lively.

Yeah, I think so. Definitely. It's a shame we haven't got should be a Blu ray release or something.

Yeah, well, it looks like it was filmed on film. All of it? I think so if they've got those films, you can do all sorts, can't you transfer?

Yeah, because the DVD release wasn't the best. It was a bit sparse.

Have you been watching them? Do you own the DVD? Yes, sometimes I find it easier to just watch the YouTube bonds. I mean, they're decent quality, aren't they? Just DVD rips. No longer a case of choosing the best quality one, because they're almost identical, really.

Yeah, they are. Be nice to have it cleaned up. Bluray. Amazing.

Yeah.

Some audio commentaries.

Commentaries behind the scenes. Documentaries. Do it, like a whole lot. The crime traveler collection like the Doctor.

Once with every yes.

Your letter could be on it as a PDF.

Yeah. Updated special effect. You get C Johnson to sit down and watch it and commentate. You think she remembered doing this? She's done so much stuff. Do you think she's like, Well, I've.

Not heard a talk about it before, and I've had a little flick through autobiography and I don't seem to mention it.

No.

So I don't know. Although you never know, she might be like, oh, yeah, I'll look at these things again and have a laugh about it. But he and Anthony Horowitz talk about it would be good because he's very honest about what worked and what didn't work.

And I wonder yeah. I mean, I wonder how I'd like to know, sort of, his experience of the whole thing, really, and how it came about.

And I like it. He calls it the one that got away a lot.

But then you think, well, why didn't he sort of maybe did anyone fight for it to couldn't he have just been on the BBC or somebody? Or producer or someone who's like, I don't know, we're doing another series, right.

Moved on to mid summer murders or something like that.

I just wondered.

Foyle's War. He's so prolific. I mean, probably had ten other things going on by the time they'd even said they weren't going to recommission it. Yeah, just one of those things. I think it might work as a novel, though. That'd be nice.

That would be good.

But a spin off novel, you could really get into the detail of it.

And you could do loads there.

Yeah, he's still very inventive with his twists and turns in the crowd.

Yeah. Yeah. Do a book. Get microphones to read the audio book. Yeah.

Okay.

They do spin off drama. Just get, like, Morris and Nikki to do, like, an unofficial spin off. Just the police lot. They can't afford Clarionette or Michael French.

Just a straightforward time travel bit.

Yeah. Just a budget. Straight to video setting. The police station, solving actual crimes in real time. Do all sorts.

Of well, yes, I know, I know. Could do a lot of things, but yeah, it's weird. It's never been repeated.

No.

And I would have thought it would have been a shoo in for BritBox.

Exactly.

I think, if it went on BritBox or something. I know it's a different production company and it's not BBC necessarily, it's Carnival.

But I think people would appreciate it. It's just a shame that you sort of mention Crime Traveler and everyone's a bit like, oh, yeah, it wasn't. As if it's a bit of a failure. But it was, like, got good viewing figures. It was Saturday night on BBC. I don't know, it just isn't appreciated. And I think it was on BritBox or something. Definitely people would enjoy it now. I think people are discovering it more and more, I think.

Yeah, people are just like, oh, what was that one? And you've got to sort of explain. So there's no way to really access it anymore. You're not going to necessarily find a DVD box set in most shops.

No, I think I got mine sort of secondhand somewhere.

Yeah, well, there's plenty on Ebay and Amazon, but yeah.

Oh, really? Yeah.

I know I've got my Ebay notification set for a number of things, and one of them is Crime Traveler stuff. But yeah, there's like three box sets every day that flashing up for me.

There's two different releases. I think I've got the complete series where it's like two separate, crime Traveler one and Crime Travel. Oh, you've got that one, which is a bit odd. And then I did have a cardboard case, one that was I think they came out separate. I think they released like, two volumes, sort of cardboard case. And then I've got this other one. I sort of upgraded to the complete box set, but they've just put a wraparound thing around the individual ones. But it's like, cramped. Yeah. So it's like episode one to four, and then episode one to four, when.

I've got a bit more disposable income. I might try and get all these different covers, but I can't really justify.

It at the moment.

This is slightly different. Look, there's some great ones from, I think from the US release or the Australian release that just looks like a completely different show. The way they did it, it's amazing.

They definitely had a lot of photo shoots for it. They put the money in on that.

I think they really wanted to push a great time as a new thing. They really did Franco other radio times.

Yeah, they did. But I suppose yeah, michael French was the name. Then straight out property centers. In a way. He was quite popular then, so he was the name, I suppose, to sort of push it. But we've got these eight episodes and I think they're brilliant.

Oh, well, it's really nice to talk to somebody who does love the show.

Yeah. And it's great to know that people are watching it. And also that's how fantastic podcast, I think, similar to you, just every now and then sort of Google or search for Crime Traveler related stuff, just to see what people are saying. And yeah, it's great that you're talking about on podcasts as well.

I mean, we're nowhere near as proactive as you. You've actually properly maintained the weekly output avenue with very few pauses.

Yeah, I'm surprised. I'm very surprised.

And what you're now you're over halfway through the classic series now.

Yeah, we should start the key to time. Wow. I don't know if we're going to have a break before the new series. I mean, that's a long way off, but we're still going week in, week out. That is quite a lot.

Have you any thoughts about are you going to cover the wilderness years, or are you going to just go straight from survival TV movie Rose?

Well, I think Dimensions in Time has.

To dimensions in Time, of course, that needs to be done.

But I love all those doctors who spin off straight to video stuff, so I might put a little season together to illustrate what it was like at the time. This is all we had. We had auton and probe and stuff like that.

That's such a long time and young as well, isn't it? Those years just dragged on, and now not a day goes by that somebody on Twitter doesn't go like, oh, it's 15 years since this episode is 16 years since that what well, yeah, it's.

Funny because 97 okay, we had the TV movie then, but other than that Doctor Who finished, there was only seven doctors. It finished. And, yeah, it was a complete thing. You know, there wasn't going to be any more there was only that many doctors. You couldn't even imagine that it would carry on. So, you know, anything like Crime Traveler and all this stuff that was on at the time, you're like, oh, there's something new. There's something else that's new that we can get into. And because Doctor had finished now, everything's oh, yeah. You wouldn't even imagine coming up to the just like, unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable that it would be carrying on.

Brilliant. Of course, you got a little behind the scenes preview of some of the last episode, The Power of the Doctor, didn't you?

Yes, when they filled up my work. Yeah. So it wasn't a scene with Richard Dempsey and that I could have said about yeah, imagine there was a picture.

Of him in the past and he was around for her, but, yeah, imagine he was there.

That would have been better than anybody else.

She loved Jodie Whittaker out there. Sorry, I've just gone through it.

Yeah, definitely. That was a surprise. That was brilliant. And finding out about teenage months and months before and not saying anything, so that was very well, I'm glad it.

Is carrying on, and therefore your podcast for a long time to go. Forever, Mark. Forever. Can you watch?

Yes. Gosh every time. I'm like, I know that what we got, like, a year till the next Doctor and stuff, but I wonder how far we'll get on the podcast till we get to yeah.

Well, yeah, it's really great hearing your progress, anyway. Very entertaining.

Yeah, thanks for inviting me to chat. It's great to talk about crime traveler. It's great that other people are talking about it.

That's great. Yeah, well, all the best for the podcast.

Cool. Thank you very much.

And fingers crossed, Crime Traveler will finally get a second series when Russell T. Davis takes it over. Yes, he'll be broadcast on Disney throughout the world, and everyone will know.

Yeah, just start with it. Just put it on brickbox Whoever's listening, just put it on. BritBox, just start with that and then see what the response is. And it will be amazing. Yes.

Hashtag bring back crime travel. Mark, thanks very much for joining me.

Cool. No worries.

Take care. Thank you.

Watch pride.

Oh, by the way, Mark, have you heard of the Vanishing Man?

Only what? Because you've done episode on it. I didn't I didn't know. I didn't know. No, I hadn't heard it before.

Well, never mind.